Ep 97 – Ideology… and whatnot

Written by on August 17, 2014

Jake, Bob, and Glenn take the scenic route from Ideology towards Personal Responsibility (aka Setting-Your-Own-Standard-of-Truth-and-Living-By-Your-Own-Moral-Compass) with a few detours into parenting, sex, and priesthood blessings along the way. Join them for the conversation. Or don’t. Your choice.

  1. Zelph   On   August 19, 2014 at 12:08 am

    I too Jake, am the youngest in a family of six. However my experience was a bit different. My older siblings constantly bickered (nothing out of the ordinary I would imagine) which was very taxing on my parents (no surprise). My dad was almost always traveling up and down the state of California for business and my mom, as only a faithful woman in Zion can do was left to her own devices to raise us.
    By the time I became a teenager, and most my siblings had almost entirely moved out (college/marriage) my dad became bishop and my mom started to work full-time as a teacher. If I wasn’t completely neglected and forgotten about as a youngster (my mom only had the ability to put out fires, not sweep away undergrowth, obviating future turmoil) I was, as my dad was completely absent (still traveling and then serving countless hours as bishop from 14-18 yrs old) and my mom by then was totally burnt/checked out. I effectively raised myself from about 14 years old on until my mission.
    During my teen years I kinda got the impression they just went through the motions of ensuring my spirituality was nurtured (read scriptures, pray together, make sure I went to seminary) but beyond that I was left to my own devices. I was sure to not cause much problems realizing I could get away with a lot of shit since there wasn’t much supervision.
    However the aftermath of the distant, hands-off parenting I’m convinced now has been appalling. My mom would have been a much better mother having had maybe two kids, and the church I’m convinced stunted/stifled entirely my relationship with my dad. I love him, respect him, and I know he suffered greatly to raise us, but I don’t have a close relationship with him. And now that I am out of the church, we really have no common denominator, or bass line from which to carry out a mature father/son relationship.

  2. Roger   On   August 19, 2014 at 5:27 pm

    I think the R-Rated movies being the start of apostasy was inspired, or at least it resonnated with me. One of the converging elements was my reaction to the movie Gladiator. In the final scene of the movie, somebody says to and empty space after a death scene, “I’ll meet you again friend, but not today.” to say, I’ll see you in heaven. I had a spiritual experience at that point, which really troubled me.
    You see, I knew that I was in violation of church protocol. Going to r-rated movies is expressly forbidden by the prophet, ergo I knew that seeing the movie was a sin… so how could I possibly feel the spirit while I was sinning? I grew up with the paradigm that there were certain movies of special historical or cultural significance that were worth seeing, even with the R-rating, e.g. Shindler’s List. We’ll I knew that gladiator was a piece of crap historically speaking, so It really didn’t merit that special exemption… so I was troubled… and I found the fact that I was troubled troubling. If the holy spirit really knows my heart the way it’s supposed to, then it would have known the emotional crisis that touching me at that moment would have caused me. If god wanted me to believe in mormonism, he was choosing a really funny way to reinforce that idea.

    • Brother Jake   On   August 19, 2014 at 6:28 pm

      I had a similar experience with Braveheart as a freshman at BYU. It was one of the first times I did something expressly forbidden by Mormonism and didn’t feel guilt about it, which (for me) sowed the seeds for undermining the Church as a moral authority in my life. Granted, that seed didn’t germinate for another 5 years, but it definitely had an impact.

      • Bob Caswell   On   August 21, 2014 at 4:12 am

        I call bullshit on Braveheart, lol. Just kidding, but here’s the thing! I actually saw Braveheart on my mission, on my mission president’s TV, no less. But Gladiator was certainly more impactful when I saw it because, while both have semi-similar messages and are ultra-violent, only one has boobs that create a layer of guilt/filth that ruins its intrinsic value to a good “only violence is ok” Mormon like me…

  3. Sarah Zarate Braudaway-Clark   On   August 19, 2014 at 5:38 pm

    Couple of things:
    1. When you asked early on how bishops and stake presidents manage to do 15 hours a week of church work in addition to their full time jobs and family responsibilities, perhaps the answer is more immediately clear to women. They’re able to because their wives are effectively single parents. People in church make tongue in cheek reference to this when they mention wives having to manage through Sacrament meeting alone, but really, it’s a daily thing. The pressure on women in the church to support their men’s church efforts away from home to the detriment of their own stress level or mental functioning is one of the (many) reasons I think we see such high rates of depression and anxiety along the Morridor.
    2. Jake’s videos may not be changing THE world, but they changed my world, so thanks for that.

    • Brother Jake   On   August 19, 2014 at 6:34 pm

      1. Good point. As someone raised by a single parent, I got a glimpse of how difficult not having anyone to share that burden with can be. (As a side note, I think the fact that I didn’t even consider my sister-in-law as part of the equation shows the sexist baggage I still carry around from my Mormon days, so I’m glad you called that out.)
      2. Aw shucks! I’m blushing 🙂

  4. Cyn   On   August 19, 2014 at 8:28 pm

    In my opinion the disclaimer at the beginning of this podcast was unnecessary. I think you guys dropped little gems of wisdom all through the podcast. I totally agree with the idea that you are on your way out as soon as you value your own judgment more than the rules of the church or the council of the brethren. As for the question about the Get Out of Jail Free Card’; I think we’d be shocked at the number of people who would just take that card, walk out the door and never look back. In a way, that is what happened to me. I was a fully active, tithe paying, temple working, Sunday School teaching member, who watched R rated movies like Schindler”s List, The King’s English, The Pianist and even Chicago. I also had a heavy laden shelf. My daughter and son in law left the church at Christmas time, just before I arrived at their home for a visit. When they told me why they had left, it was like they were giving me the Get Out of Jail Free Card. Knowing that they were troubled by the same things that had troubled me, plus the fact that I could leave with my family intact, was all the permission I needed. I haven’t been inside the church since and I resigned six months later. You should do a podcast about the similarities between Monopoly and TSCC..

  5. alfajerk   On   August 25, 2014 at 12:50 am

    I love the ending, I forgot how ridiculous it is when parent’s whisper in their kid’s ear, like Charlie McCarthy.

  6. Holly   On   August 29, 2014 at 5:44 pm

    I relate so much to what Bob and Jake were saying about desire and attraction as a believer. I spent at least 2, possibly more, temple recommend interviews asking my stake presidency member if he was SURE I could enter the Lord’s house with occasional thoughts about other guys in my head. (I never asked the Bishop. I needed the big guns to tell me) Normal observations about someone else’s attractiveness would become huge stresses for me, because I felt so guilty. How could I let my mind wander to anyone besides my husband? I think the ideas stayed longer than they normally would because of the shame I felt. I’m learning now to let those natural thoughts come and go, and that everyone recognizes good looking people! I thought it was just me, the heathen.
    Also, my mom dressed as Ed Grimley for Halloween one year when I was a kid. It was glorious.

    • Bob Caswell   On   August 29, 2014 at 6:33 pm

      Thanks for sharing, Holly. Even now, on the outside, I get a bonus sense of validation when I hear of someone else having similar thoughts and experiences. And it’s doubly validating when coming from a woman, because the stereotype of “this only happens to men” will probably never die in my head otherwise…

  7. Brian D.   On   March 8, 2015 at 4:58 am

    Coming way late to the party but this was a great listen that I finished up on my way to priesthood leadership. Apparently I am on the slow burn path.

  8. Adrienne   On   May 15, 2015 at 3:44 pm

    Loved this episode, and I know this is really late for commenting, but I am a newer listener and am constantly listening to old episodes, so sorry! A couple of thoughts:
    I agree with Jake about the switch to trusting your own authority more than the churches being a sign that you are on your way out. However, something else that I think is a big factor, or at least was for me, was when the church switched from being a net positive to a net negative in my life. I got pulled from a calling I loved working with three of my favorite people, to a calling I hated working with women I didn’t have a good relationship with or know at all. It was during this calling that I found out about polyandry and my shelf came crashing down. I really feel like the fact I hated church so much at this point made it possible for me to even think that maybe the church wasn’t true.
    On the parenting before and after you “leave” the church, I think that Jake and Bob were right for most people, but Glenn is just more of an anomaly. As a 36 year old with three young children there are a lot of things I feel differently about how I want to parent now than I did two years ago, mostly to do with modesty, sex, LGBT issues, and the word of wisdom.

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