Ep 225 – 14 Fundamentals of Smacking Down a Prophet

Written by on October 25, 2015

John, Jake, Randy, and Glenn are joined by new Infant friend Heather for a really quick listener requested quasi-smackdown of the blog post “History vs Heritage: Maybe We Should Stop Saying That We’ve Been Lied to by the Church,” followed by a disproportionately loquatious smack down of Ezra Taft Benson’s classic cluster-talk “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet.”
Don’t think that this means that we won’t also be smacking down the recent lady-centric essays on LDS.org. Just think that this means that we just haven’t gotten around to it yet. #patienceiago


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Comments
  1. Thomas Moore   On   October 25, 2015 at 1:27 pm

    I have to say, though long, Heather made this one of my most favorite episodes. Even though her quick wit and sarcasm cut the males, it actually made you guys seem more intelligent because you guys caught the jokes and references that she was making. I also had to admit that I had put John Hamer up there on a pedestal so when Heather corrected him…Well done! Serious and irreverent all at the same time?!?! only you guys (and now girl) can pull it off. Also thanks for referring to books and articles I hadn’t read. “The Grand Inquisitor” is now on my must read list.

    • Randy_Snyder   On   October 26, 2015 at 4:33 pm

      The Grand Inquisitor is not a book. It’s a parable told by a character (Ivan) in a book called The Brothers Karamazov.

      • Dan   On   October 26, 2015 at 5:11 pm

        haha thanks for the correction and retraction Randy. I’m not deep but I like to pose like a deep thinker around my friends. I would have totally said, “In the Grand Inquisitor…” and then regurgitated Heather’s synopsis and conclusions. I mean, I’m still going to do that but now I’ll be able to add, “actually, it’s in The Brothers Karamazov”

      • Dan   On   October 27, 2015 at 6:16 am

        Sorry, I think I’m going to stick with John Hamer’s answer now. Oh literature? I don’t read literature.

      • Thomas Moore   On   October 26, 2015 at 9:42 pm

        I actually did a “Bing” search and found a pdf paper on it, was confused, so I checked Wikipedia and found it’s one of the parables of “The Brothers Karamazov”. So here I thought I was going to have to read a whole book (unlike Divergent, at least I could watch the movies on that one).

    • Ryan Gregson   On   October 25, 2015 at 3:55 pm

      That being said, everyone is great as always. There’s some really funny post production stuff on this one.

  2. Brian Whitney   On   October 25, 2015 at 4:02 pm

    Hey kids, thanks for the smack down of the title for my boring, but effectively clickbaity blog post.

  3. Riley Ockerman   On   October 25, 2015 at 4:59 pm

    Great episode guys and gal! I’m almost sad that this is the beginning of the end for the Infants.

      • Riley Ockerman   On   October 28, 2015 at 7:15 pm

        Early in the episode Heather made a comment that once the podcast finally ends people would look back at this episode as the beginning of the end. She said she was going to Yoko Ono the Infants.

  4. Matthew A   On   October 25, 2015 at 5:15 pm

    You guys need to find a way to keep Heather around. Maybe make some important sounding position for her on IOT, like “Belief Society President.” You could let her do a talk for the general conference episodes, and even let her say one of the prayers.There may also be ample opportunities for her to be publicly involved in presenting your PR statements. It’s just too bad God would never want her to be an actual Infant.

  5. Ryan Bailey   On   October 25, 2015 at 8:19 pm

    Hey Infants – soooooo yeah, Heather needs to be a permanent Infant. Do we need a solemn assembly to vote her in?

  6. Aaron   On   October 25, 2015 at 8:30 pm

    This is my favorite infants episode ever. I love everything Heather brings to the table, especially that she’s still active in the church like a lot of us are.

  7. Krystal   On   October 26, 2015 at 12:46 am

    My husband walked in about half-way through the podcast and just started objecting that what was being read was in contradiction to scriptures that encourage us to get our own testimony/revelation, etc. rather than just blindly follow. We then discussed the possibility that people like us latched on to those kinds of scriptures and doctrine because we are so completely disgusted by blind obedience, but there is definitely another camp of people who see us as prideful and difficult. To them, once it leaves the mouth of the prophet/Q15, then it’s a done deal. I had several conversations (mild debates) with a lady in my ward who just didn’t understand why I made such a big deal about personal accountability and conviction because she simply needed to follow the prophet. I couldn’t wrap my brain around it. I liked the lady, so I suggested that maybe that kind of faith/obedience was one of her gifts, and that I wasn’t gifted that and needed to go through the extra steps to gain a testimony. I do think Heather’s point that psychology supports that some people just need more of the thinking/choices to be done for them because they don’t have the mental stamina/acuity to do it themselves. Of course, a lot of this discussion lends support to that horribly worded thought expressed by Kate Kelly that the people who thrive in the church are the ones who aren’t thinking for themselves.

    • Thomas Moore   On   October 26, 2015 at 1:44 am

      I also had one of those illuminating experiences that the Infants were talking about…When Heather suggested that God should of just written code or made everyone cyborgs. It means that God is just bringing Intelligences into the “Q” continuum by sifting out all of the “free thinkers” ambitious or creative intelligences by claiming they’re just as evil or bad as murderers, thieves and all that hurt their fellow brothers and sisters.

      • Glenn   On   October 26, 2015 at 11:51 am

        I had one as well, of the BIG G God vs. little g god variety. When Heather (and others before her – I’ve heard this line of thinking before) was talking about how inefficient it is for God to demand obedience as the end-all and be-all of passing this mortal “can they advance to become like god” test, it made me think of the sloppy way Mormonism (aka Joseph Smith) has mixed Big God and little god characteristics into the theological tradition. There’s more to unpack here for sure, but King Follet (and other sources) presents (little) god as an inheritor of things (Intelligences) that he did not create or design. So to suggest that he should have created it better, or designed it without inherant evil, or that he is eternally and solely responsible for the actions of these intelligences because he “made us this way” is a misplaced criticism aimed at a sloppily defined deity. Hmmmm… The Sloppily Defined Deity. That sounds like it should be the title for something….

      • Heather   On   October 26, 2015 at 5:06 pm

        “Hang on, everybody. I’m smart, too! Heather’s comments were all derivative anyway. I know cool words, too! #reify” 🙂

      • Phonin' It In From Kolob   On   October 26, 2015 at 5:21 pm

        I, for one, certainly didn’t mean to imply that you weren’t smart. In fact, it took me an embarrassingly long time to figure out that there were actually two Heathers. You’re both smarter than me.

      • Dan   On   October 27, 2015 at 6:20 am

        I already can’t tell the difference between Matt and Randy. Now I gotta deal with two Heathers?!

      • Ryan Bailey   On   November 3, 2015 at 5:13 pm

        Ha, Wasatch Brewery should make it into a good double IPA! The new ‘Sloppily Defined Deity’

      • Ryan Bailey   On   November 3, 2015 at 4:53 pm

        This was really a great part of the discussion, Jake kept referring to it as ‘selecting’ for those characteristics. It’s so ironic that our ancestors (or for me my parents) had to have the courage and free thinking ability to break away from their own family traditions only to have their posterity be coached into following the traditions of their mormon ancestors because you know…prophets.
        Yes, selecting for certain character traits that promote submission or at least acquiescence to authority is definitely a great way of putting it.

  8. Phonin' It In From Kolob   On   October 26, 2015 at 2:27 am

    Yes, nothing screams, “CULT!” louder than the Fourteen Fundamentals. It’s good to drag them out and heartily disrespect them every year or two, lest we forget.
    I, too, enjoy Heather’s contribution. She reminds me a little of Ashley Sanders in that it can be hours or a day later before I realize how funny something she said actually was. I’m more fascinated than frightened by people who are smarter than I am. Keep it up.

  9. Mike   On   October 26, 2015 at 12:51 pm

    Great episode, not even finished yet (Need a longer drive to work) but have to comment.
    Loving it! I love the entire first part where you are all just messing around with each other. It’s cracking me up! I have said this before, but it’s like I’m just hanging out with my exmormon friends. Which I can’t do, cause I don’t have many exmormon friends to hang out with.
    Also Heather, way to represent DC Metro area!!!!! I wonder if your SP is as big a douche as the one in my area. He’s a real pill.
    Keep on keeping on Infants!
    p.s. Glenn, when you cut in to talk about your FB feed. I thought I was going to crash my car I was laughing so hard.
    Thanks guys and gal!

    • Riley Ockerman   On   October 26, 2015 at 5:22 pm

      That’s the same way I think about listening to IOT. Just handing out with my Ex-Mo friends….that I don’t have because I’m not in a very Mormon area.

      • Riley Ockerman   On   October 26, 2015 at 5:29 pm

        When I lived in the DC area I was surprised at how many Mormons there were. Now I live in Eastern PA and there are hardly any, active or Ex. It’s nice on the one hand yet at the same time it would be nice to be able to hang out with some people that understand the weirdness that is Mormonism.

      • Mike   On   October 26, 2015 at 5:33 pm

        Yeah. It’s crazy how many mormons there are here. I live out in the country and even my next door neighbor is mormon.
        Having more who understood my situation around would be nice. So instead I just go hang out with my NeverMo friends. One who finds the church fascinating. But not in the kind of way that she’d ever want to join the church lol.

      • dmharris26   On   October 27, 2015 at 3:44 pm

        I lived in the area for a dozen years, mostly east of the city in Maryland. I didn’t really get the feeling that there were that many mormons…never lived on the same street as another mormon and it seemed as though the wards got smaller and smaller as time went by. Maybe it’s a Maryland vs. Virginia type of thing with more Dems in Maryland and more Republicans (more likely Mormon) in Virginia…????

  10. EE   On   October 26, 2015 at 5:16 pm

    Glenn (assuming it was Glenn) — putting in the Mormon Stories music when Heather was explaining her background was genius. I couldn’t stop laughing, and then started laughing even harder when it became apparent Heather was just parroting Dehlin. So good!

  11. Meg   On   October 27, 2015 at 12:35 am

    Heather is the best! She is funny, clever, and doesn’t take any shit from the boys. This show is sooo much better with even slightly more diversity on the panel. Heather should be on every show.

  12. GGG   On   October 27, 2015 at 2:38 pm

    You guys need to stop using the “R” word – retarded. It really isn’t cool. Great to make fun of people who can defend themselves but cheap shot to make fun of people who can’t defend themselves. Think about it..

    • Heather_ME   On   October 27, 2015 at 4:46 pm

      Yeah, I turn off episodes when they go down that road. I have a niece with Downs Syndrome. It’s not funny to me when people claim that people doing ridiculous things are somehow behaving as only handicapped people would and, therefore, are worthy of ridicule. But, I get that I’ll likely never be able to make most people understand that. So I usually don’t try. I just find something else to listen to and wait for the day when ridiculing terms, used for humor, are all in the vein of “Santorum” rather than slams on groups of people who don’t deserve to be the butt of peoples’ jokes.

    • NotPC   On   October 27, 2015 at 5:43 pm

      REALLY!?!? That, to me, is what’s wrong with the world today, oversensitivity to words. I use the word “retard” all the time and plan on continuing to use. I don’t use it in reference to those with Down Syndrome as I believe that is ignorant, but to say not to use a word because you think it’s bad, I believe is forcing your beliefs and thoughts on people, and isn’t that what the church tries to do with it’s members. Sorry you don’t like the word, but don’t try sensor others for being themselves.

  13. Joshua Wart   On   October 27, 2015 at 6:12 pm

    I have to defend Tolkien!
    The witch-king no-man thing is commonly misunderstood as Heather put it: He could not be killed by a man. This seems to be what the movies used because it’s simpler and doesn’t require backstory.
    In reality, there was a prophecy that the Witch King “Shall not be killed by any man.” That doesn’t really mean that he can’t be killed by a man, just that he won’t be.
    Eowyn was fulfilling that prophecy. It wasn’t some girl-power thing; it was a long build-up of the Witch King’s weird position in Tolkien’s mythos.

  14. Pink-lead   On   October 28, 2015 at 3:24 pm

    The Fourteen Fundamentals: All truth circumscribed under/into one great ass-whole. I enjoyed the discussion and laughed several times, but right now I feel pissed off….

  15. Gabriel von Himmel   On   October 28, 2015 at 7:41 pm

    Spot on production, unity and harmony with mormon mischief.
    A joy to behold, Heathers toe in the water was inspired. Heterosexual minglling was a relief from the infant’s homo lineage. More mingling please. Satire is the best antidote to ignorance.

  16. Pointless1492   On   October 29, 2015 at 10:59 pm

    I never thought I’d say this about a female guest but I’d be okay with having Heather back. I have always thought infants works as a great guy space and woman kind of screw up the dynamic, but Heather worked. I liked having a voice that was still a garment wearing, visiting teaching Mormon. I just don’t want a permanent infant that you guys wouldn’t feel comfortable saying “Fuck You” to though. Anyway, another fantastic podcast.

  17. Thomas Moore   On   November 1, 2015 at 3:05 am

    Going back to “We should stop saying we’ve been lied to”. Just watched the Grant Palmer/Alma Allred presentation. Let me first say this made me so mad and upset that this Alma Allred is a University Institute teacher??? Dude, WE WERE LIED TO. I WAS TRAINED AND TAUGHT HOW TO LIE ON MY MISSION. This is the first time I’m asking for a smack down of a smack down?!?! https://youtu.be/p7thlSvpL-Q

  18. J. Cluster   On   January 29, 2016 at 11:38 pm

    I’m the male version of Heather. Active…ish, served a Russian-speaking mission, and living adual identity. What I would fucking give to be on this panel! Lol
    I love it when John Hamer chimes in. He completely destroys all doctrinal assumptions GA’S make in their talks when they quote scripture. Basically, all you have to say is that Brigham Young didn’t even have the keys. Why? Because Joseph never gave them to anyone openly, as scripture says it has to be done openly. Technically, Brighamites don’t have ONE prophet. All you really need to destroy the church’s exclusivity claim on doctrine is its own canonized scripture. Good God! The LAST thing leaders really want us to do is REALLY read scriptures. Wow. This makes me just feel a stirring in my loins!

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